Message: Early Documented History
Author: Astrologue - Urgos Enkidu
Date: May 22, 1998 01:13
In 965 AD The Caliph of Cordoba accomanied by his scribe or chronicler Ibrahim-Ibn-Jakub visited Prague. Fragments of the report survived and here are some highlights. There were 4 slavic kindoms reported, the Bulgars , the northen slavs(Poles) led by Mesko, the western slavs led by Nakon, and the Bohemians led by Bojeslav. Mesko controlled the largest territory. The Slavs practiced a dowry suystem, which was compared to that of the Berbers. The Slavs were categorized as violent and displayed prowess in combat, but fractiousness kept them from becoming too powerfull. By this time the Slavs traded with the Ruthenians as well as Constantinople. There were wars going on intermittenly amongst the different Slavic tribes, as well as with the Franks, Byzantines, and Langobards. Also noted was that viginity was not a prized virtue, but rather, seemed to indicate that something was wrong with the woman. Adultery, however, was not tolerated.

Message: Their Humble Beginnings
Author: - Apiladey ApilSin
Date: May 23, 1998 20:13
Most of these posts were gleaned from notes taken long ago from The Slavs by Maija Gimbutas (1971), which I heartily recommend to interested readers. Back when the danubian Indo-europeans spread out (19'th century BC), the group that became the Slavs moved northward. The oldest Slavic finds are in an area from S.E. Poland into Moldavia (300 to 350 miles towards the Black Sea). They eventually settled into a 200 mile wide strip of land, the length of which stretched from where present-day Kharkov is in Russia to Berlin & Wroclaw on the west. They were not really aggressive, and since their homeland was located next to the more aggressive Balts, and on the crossroads of the north/south migration trail of the warlike Goths and the east/west trail for the migration of virtually every steppe tribe of even more warlike nomads, the Slavs spent most of their early existence hiding in the forests. Being a mounted people, the steppe nomads (Huns, Scyths, Sarmatians, etc) avoided forested areas. Since the grasslands were more productive than the forests (biologically speaking), it's my opinion that the Goths preferred those richer grasslands. In fact, from their beginnings till the dissolution of the Huns in about 500 AD, these people are referred to as 'Proto Slavs'. After 500, archeologists are able to show a continuity of Slavic settlement and are thence called 'Slavs'. They are classified as 'Early Slavs' from then till 700. Slavs always chose land that was formerly forested and which had soil that could be turned with a plow made for light soil. During the Proto Slav times, these people were favored as slaves by Germanic, Balt and Steppe tribes. The original meaning of the word 'Slav' was 'glorious'. It's easy to see how slave merchants, plying their trade in more civilized Greece and Rome, led to the founding of the word 'slave'. "Hey, I've got a fine stock of Slavs for you to look at" came to mean "Hey, I've got some great slaves for you to look at". But the Slavs persisted. They started their own aggressive expansion, spreading north, south and west. They eventually occuppied an area 8 times larger than their pre-expansion homeland. I've got much more on religion, family life politics, etc. to follow.

Message: Family Life
Author: Babylonian Minister of Trade - Apiladey ApilSin
Date: May 26, 1998 05:29
For the most part, Slavs lived in 'joint-families' called zadrugas. The head of the group lives in the main house with his immediate family. His brothers have smaller houses, built out from the main house in a semicircular pattern. As the male children of the Zadruga marry, their father builds them their own house in the semicircle. Most socializing is done in the main house or outdoors, the other houses are just for sleeping. Meals are taken together in the main house. Land, stock and tools are all owned collectively. The only things owned by each individual family are clothes, small items, and money earned privately. Although the father or grandfather is the head of the zadruga, most decisions concerning family belongings are made with the counsel and consent of the other adult members. It is his job to maintain good relations between the zadruga and the rest of the village, the church, and the state. He chooses his own successor, usually either the eldest or ablest son. If there are no sons, he may choose a brother or brother's son. If the father dies unexpectedly with no heir, the older men of the zadruga elect someone. Generally, the 'house mother' is the wife of the father or grandfather. Since she derives her power from him, she relinquishes this job if he dies or is replaced. If she becomes too old, weak or disabled, the eldest daughter-in-law takes her place. She's in charge of the kitchen, the cows and pigs, the clothing, the spinning and weaving. She preserves good relations among the women and designates tasks among them. She also serves as a mediator between the 'house father' and the rest of the family. Next in the hierarchy come the sons who form the family council. Lastly come the women and children. Women were not only work horses, they had about the same status as a horse (slight exaggeration). The 'house father' is allowed to beat his wife and children. He is allowed incest with the wives of his sons. It is believed that concubinage was accepted among Indo-europeans, and it may have been so among Slavs as well. In some places, rich or powerfull men had 2 or 3 wives. After her husband's death, she had no right to his property, but was merely allowed to remain in the house, and was provided with food, clothes and burial. If she chose to leave the house, she left these few privelages with the house. Children work as shepherds from the time they are 10 years old. When they are 16, they begin work in the fields. At 20, they are adults. They lived in semi-subterranean 'log cabins', with a stone hearth in one corner. As stated before, except for the main house, these houses were just sleeping quarters and, as such may have been very small. Some, uncovered near Nitra, measured as small as 6 by 7 1/2 feet. If you subtract for the space of the hearth, I think I've had bigger sleeping bags. Similar forms of patriarchal joint-families are found among the Balts, Iranians, and Armenians, but the joint family disappeared in almost all the western Indo-european groups. The western Slav eventually followed suit (perhaps under their influence).

Message: Small addendum
Author: - Apiladey ApilSin
Date: May 26, 1998 05:34
The previous post may have sounded bleaker than was intended. They were a fun-loving people and are known to have greatly enjoyed music. Any people who lived in log cabins and enjoyed singing and other music pass my test.

Message: The Last Pagans
Author: Astrologue - Urgos Enkidu
Date: May 27, 1998 00:18
Lithuania was the last Pagan state in Europe. On August 14, 1385 Jogaila signed an agreement ending his Paganism in exchange for the hand of Jadwiga a Hungarian Hapsburg princess. He converted on Febuary 15, 1386 and became Wladyslav, though not for love of Christianity but rather because of political necessity. Both Poland and the Teutonic Order threatened Lithuania and as long as Lithuania remained pagan she would be subject to relentless attacks. Jadwiga, in the bargain, was forced to abonded her betrothed, Wilhelm von Habsburg, who was chased out of Cracow by the Castellan of the city. Forced to live in a foreign land against her wishes the new queen turned to charity for the poor and became a beloved figure in the minds of the masses.

Message: Social Structure
Author: Babylonian Minister of Trade - Apiladey ApilSin
Date: May 31, 1998 03:12
The previously mentioned zadrugas combined to form clans, called rodu. A clan was the usual unit which controlled certain forests or pastures. Their members pledged blood vengeance in defense of one another. Clans were combined into tribes, called pleme, the territory of whom was called a zupa. The leader of a zupa was a zupan or starsina (depending on the location). The leaders actually had little personal power, they were rather dependent on their council (the druzina) as was typical of the Indo-europeans. The society contains kings (knez, knjaz, or vladika), nobles, the free-born, freedmen, and slaves (xolpu or orbu). Polabian and Pomeranian Slavs had a class of military aristocracy called vitiezi, who were always seen on horseback. The status of being on horseback was an admiration picked up during Scythian times. Property distinctions carried the terms bogatu (wealthy), ubogu (poor), and nebogu (unfortunate). When a chieftain showed enough strength and efficiency to subdue a number of other tribes, his territory became a state called a zemlja (land) and he became a 'grand duke'. Slaves were fairly well treated and considered as part of the family. Unfortunately, as is the wife, slaves were sometimes cremated with the deceased father of the family. The blood vengeance mentioned in the 3rd sentence puzzles me. Elsewhere in the book, he mentioned blood vengeance as a traditional right of a man after the death of his son, his brother's son, or his sister's son. These rights sound 'fixed' in tradition and don't extend to other family members. Why then is the same term used with reference to an alliance agreement with other clan members? Perhaps with reference to the family, it is understood rather than an agreement. I'm also puzzled by the status of 'grand duke'. It sounds like a grand duke might be superior to a king. If anyone understands these last 2 'puzzlements' better than I, please jump in.

Message: Slavic Crusaders
Author: Astrologue - Urgos Enkidu
Date: May 31, 1998 03:40
The Slavs were generally not great Crusaders, here's the story of one Crusading King, Wladyslav III, who probably should have stayed at home. From the account of Chodza Efendi:
It was dawn, as the moring star announced the strident call to arms. The archers began the fight, and when the full force of the sajdaki had been unleashed both sides fell on each other swords in hand... The king of the infidels, burning with the excitement of victory, heeded the false counsel of one, Janko, to attck the camp of the padishah directly. With a handful of men and brandishing a captured scimitar, he made no attempt to halt his charge as he rode straight towards the Sultan. The King careless in his bravery, spurred on his horse far ahead of his followers charging straight for the splendid bunczuk of the padishah.... A Janissay by the name of Chozda Kazer threw him to the ground wounding his horse, then severed the head of this disciple of Hell, and brought it to the padishah...

Message: Slavic City Life
Author: - Apiladey ApilSin
Date: Jun 16, 1998 08:15
At first, Slavic settlements in Germany were either unfortified, or protected by hill-forts with earthen ramparts and ditches, or naturally protected by the geography of the area, i.e. steep promontories partly surrounded by a river. In the late 8'th century AD, the castrum made its appearance. It was the next step - a more heavily fortified hill-fort (usually 20 to 70 sq. Km., but sometimes up to 150 sq. Km.) on a steep hill and was surrounded by open settlements. It had massive earthen ramparts with built-in wooden reinforcements, and many stones built into the face and core of the walls. When many areas were consolidated, they often formed a castle-district (the next level of settlement). The populations concentrated in these communities became more and more specialized concerning their labor. Ore-smelters, iron-workers, blacksmiths, potters and jewellers (particularly in Moravia) became respected here. Iron workshops here produced ploughshares, sickles, knives, axes and swords, along with other tools. There were also specialists in leatherworking, weaving, stonecutting, bone and woodworking and ceramic art. In Lupka, about 250 pots were found with property symbols on them such as crosses, wheels and rectangles. One of these symbols was a swastika - its first appearance, so far as I know.

Message: Slavic Religion
Author: - Apiladey ApilSin
Date: Jun 28, 1998 06:28
Literacy arrived in these lands right along with Christianity (Moravia in 863, Bulgaria in 885, Poland in 966, and Russia in 988). Because of this, the best descriptions of Slavic idols and temples come from their Christian destroyers, such as bishop Otto of Bamburg and bishop Thietmar of Meresburg. Temples are often found at the highest point of a hill-fort. Typical offerings included acorns, grains, clay imitations of grains and bread, miniature and normal-sized pots & iron ornaments. As with many other Indo-European offshoots, Slavs believed in an afterlife (burialsites included implements and creature comforts to make their afterlife better). Christianity would have come to these lands much slower were it not for Constantius (later to become St Cyril) and Methodius (his brother). These two missionaries arrived in Moravia in 863 and had soon organized a national church, with services given in Slavic. They translated the Bible and other ecclesiastical texts into the Slavic spoken in Moravia. Since there was no written Slavik language, it had to be done phonetically using Greek, Samaritan, and oriental letters. This Bible found its way into almost all Slavic lands and its characters became the Glagolithic alphabet or Old Church Slavonic. This alphabet spread across the Slavic lands and is still used today in Greek Orthodox Slavic countries. I will discuss the many entities in the pantheon in subsequent posts.

Message: The Gods of Rugen
Author: - Apiladey ApilSin
Date: Jun 30, 1998 07:00
When the Slavs were overrun on the island of Rugen, two temples were described. The temple of the god, Svantevit, was found in the castle of Arkona. It had a roof supported by four columns. The walls were in the form of purple rugs hung from the roof. It was located inside a temple building which had one door, a red roof, and strong walls. The inside wall was an ornamental, roughly-painted relief. On the inside were ornaments, many purple things, and animal horns. The outer walls were constructed of vertical posts and measured 20 meters by 20 meters. Within the temple, in a sunken base, was a huge wooden idol. It held a drinking horn in its right hand. During the harvest festival, wine was poured into this horn to prophesy the next year's crops. The higher the level reached, the better the crops would be next year. When Danish King Waldemar destroyed this temple, his men chopped the idol down at the base and it fell and wedged itself against the wall. These walls had to be dismantled to get the idol out. Gimbutas' discussion of Svetovit (a diferent spelling of Svantevit, perhaps) confused me quite a bit. He/she says Svetovit is the patron god of Rugen (but I thought he said Rugievit was??). Three other gods are described (with 2, 3 or even more heads): Jarovit (the god of Spring), Porovit (the god of Summer), and Ruevit (the god of Fall). Then he/she says, "These three aspects of Triglav encompass the spring-to-fall growing season for plants and the maturing season for animals". Here, I got so confused. Triglav is described as a three headed summer god in one place and, in another, as a god with four aspects (but what of the three aspects mentioned earlier). Triglav is the god with the largest range of temples across Slavic lands (Stettin, Brandenburg, and near Sibenik (close to the Adriatic Coast)). After conquering Arkona, the next to fall on Rugen was Garz. There were three temples here, the largest devoted to Rugievit, the 'God of Rugen'. He had seven heads with seven swords hanging from his girdle, and an eighth in his hand. This temple was very similar to the one for Svantevit (inner room with roof and purple hanging rugs). The other two temples were for Porevit (perhaps a diferent spelling for Porovit, who is mentioned elsewhere in this book) and Porenut (for whom I could find no further description). The belief in multiheaded (polycephalic) gods goes all the way back to Proto-Indo-European times, and was carried through into other offshoot groups (at least Iranians and Balts). The rest of the pantheon described by Gimbutas is much easier to understand. When describing a god with one name, which has several heads (each with their own name) to a non-slavic speaker like me (who wouldn't know if a slight change in spelling represents a diferent god or just a diferent spelling) - there's just bound to be confusion. This confusion aside, I have nothing but praise for Gimbutas'book.

Message: Zuarasici and Gerovit
Author: - Apiladey ApilSin
Date: Jul 1, 1998 07:57
Zuarasici was the most important god in Riedegost. His temple had a square floorplan and people paid homage there before going off to war, and offerings there when they came back. Just what kind of offerings these were was decided by the priests after consulting dice and horse oracles (you'll have to ask Ms. Gimbutas what a horse oracle is). From this description, it sounds like Zuarasici was a god of war, but Gimbutas says the God of war (or at least the main one) was Gerovit. His temples appear to have had no idols. A temple of his was found in Wollin which contained a sacred spear, and one in Wollgast held a giant, gold-leafed shield.

Message: Jarilo, Svarog, Svarozhich, and the vila
Author: - Apiladey ApilSin
Date: Jul 5, 1998 07:56
Festivals celebrating Jarilo were centered on an old idol in Voronezh. Involved with these celebrations was a man with his face painted red and white. He carried jingle-bells and was adorned with flowers. These celebrations always took place from the Wednesday or Friday following Whitsuntide (the week of the 7'th Sunday after Easter) till the next Sunday. Apparently, the Balts had a similar god. Svarog was the creator of the sun. The sun and the hearthfire are both personified as Svarog's son (Swarozhich). Both personifications were worshipped by the Slavs. The hearthfire was kept burning in homes by the mothers and in sanctuaries by the priests day and night every day of the year but one. The were symbolically extinguished and restarted on the eve of the summer solstice festival. Their worship of the sun could be seen in the temples they built, designed so as to watch the sunrise from, and in their customs of sleeping with their heads facing east, and burying their dead likewise. When Christianity came to the Lusatian Slavs, they fused the two beliefs in the custom of turning to greet the rising sun upon entering a church. Svarog may have been thought to be a dragon-slayer and may have been able to change into a falcon, horse, wolf or whirlwind. The vila were maidens associated with Svarog, who were typically strong, naked battle-maidens (my favorite type) equipped with bows and arrows. Slovaks, Croats, Serbs and Bulgarians believed in them, crediting them as being friends of heroes. These people left offerings for them at springs, caves, stones, and under trees. Vila could transform into falcons, horses, wolves, and whirlwinds (as could Svarog), but to their list is added swans and snakes. If a man approaches them while they are dancing on mountain tops, they shoot arrows at him, blind him, or pull him into the ring and dance him to death. What a way to go. Gimbutas really had my interest here.

Message: Perun
Author: - Apiladey ApilSin
Date: Jul 6, 1998 08:52
This was a god worshipped by all Slavs. He has Indo-European roots. Per-, perk-, or perg- were Indo-European for 'to strike'. Since Perun is the god of thunder, this reflects there ideas of what causes thunder. He usually had open temples in sacred groves and not always with an idol. Gimbutas says he was probably "a vigorous man with a copper beard, riding in a chariot drawn by a he-goat and holding in one hand an axe or hammer, which he throws at bad people and evil spirits, and which afterwards returns to his hand. The axe, a fetish known among European peoples since Neolithic times, was subsequently identified with the thunderbolt." It seems to me that Thor and Perun had the same roots. Perun often battled the forces of death and barrenness. A person or tree was said to be filled with health-giving powers, if they survive being struck by lightning. Big trees, the oak in particular, were sacred to the thunder god. Sacrifices (most often the cock, but occassionally the bull, bear, or he-goat) were subsequently eaten communally to strengthen the whole group. After christianization, Perun's character was joined with St. Elias.

Message: Volos and Rod
Author: - Apiladey ApilSin
Date: Jul 7, 1998 05:37
There isn't a lot to write about these two. Volos was the god of horned animals and the flocks. From the alternate names given for him (Veles, Vels, Veleda (Celtic), and Felmac (Old Irish), he must be based in Indo-European beliefs. After christianization, he was replaced by St. Blasius (Byzantine). Rod was a god associated with birth. He had numerous birth fairies (the Russian rozhenitsa, Slovenian rojenica, Czech sudica and Serbo-Croatian sudjenica).

Message: Gods known from Kiev, but undescribed in any pantheon
Author: - Apiladey ApilSin
Date: Jul 7, 1998 05:55
Simargl- This was a winged griffin which was apparently a god borrowed from the Sarmatians in the 1st century BC. He seems to have been a warrior-god.
Khors- This name is said to be borrowed from the Iranian pantheon for the personified sun. I assume Gimbutas means it's synonymous with Svarozhich.
Stribog- In the Igor Tale (which I'm not familiar with), she says Stribog is the grandfather of the winds. Dazbog- In Slavic, it means the giver of wealth.
Mokosh- According to Gimbutas, "if Mokosh was pleased with their offerings, she would help them with their laundry". A goddess of laundry? She says the Czechs prayed to her in times of draught. Around Novgorod, she spins flax at night, but around Olonets, she spins wool. She seems to be connected with textiles and the production of water, so I guess laundry falls in both categories. Frequent offerrings include grain, flax, wool, pigs, calves, sheep and money.

Message: Of Perun and Thor
Author: visitor from the north - Bacchus Ulpius
Date: Jul 7, 1998 13:02
I agree with Apiladey that Perun sounds much like the Norse thunder-god. Thor was red bearded, powerful and travelled in a chariot drawn by two he-goats, and his hammer also returned back after throwing it. He used to fight giants or other evil creatures. Besides being a thunder god he controlled the weather and protected marriage and the peace of the dead.

As common in mythology there seems to be some differences in the descriptions.

A source on Perun says that he was known as "the thunderer", but give him the title of god of war. You mentíoned a copper beard. This source gives Perun a silver head and a golden beard. "Riding his flaming chariot across the sky, he uses his bow to pierce the clouds with shafts of lightning like the Svarog of old." He can also call rain and thunder at will.

(http://pubpages.unh.edu/~cbsiren/myth.html General Slavic, The Slavic Mythos)

At least after a quick check I can not see any special similarities between the other gods of the Norse and Slavic mythologies.

Message: Simargl
Author: - Demetrios Xanthippos
Date: Jul 7, 1998 17:08
The Sarmatians may have transmitted this creature to the Slavs, but it is Persian in origin. The simurgh, simurg or simorg is a monstrous bird that appears in Persian fables and legends. I don´t remember what it is supposed to look like, but I have a vague memory that it was one of the many beings that menaced the soul on its journey to the afterlife.

Message: For Bacchus
Author: - Apiladey ApilSin
Date: Jul 8, 1998 07:46
Gimbutas' source for a description of Perun was the Lithuanian equivalent - Perkunas. It could be that he had red hair while roaming around Lithuania in his youth. Then again, the silver hair would come early to one in the stressfull occupation of fighting giants and demons. It couldn't be because, while in Lithuania, he just got messy with his dinner, and ended up with too much meat sauce in his hair. Blood maybe, but not meat sauce. By the way, it's nice to see I'm not alone here. Thanks for posting you guys.

Message: Mati syra zemlja = Moist Mother Earth
Author: - Apiladey ApilSin
Date: Jul 8, 1998 08:22
This is about the last post I have from Gimbutas. Since I can't find a good way to edit what she wrote without diminishing its quality, I'll just quote her from The Slavs by Marija Gimbutas (1971 from Praeger Publishers). "A truly archaic female divinity is the Moist Mother Earth (Mati syra zemlja). The peasants of Volynia and the Byelorussian woodlands believed that in spring it was a very grave sin to strike the earth with anything before 25 March-because during that time the earth is pregnant. The Russians, similarly, forbad ploughing and digging on various holidays including Memorial Day and Assumption Day-for these were the earth's name~day-and demanded that if a person spat on the ground he must beg the Earth's pardon. For centuries, Slav peasants settled disputes over landed property by calling the Earth to witness the justice of their claims. Marriages were confirmed by swallowing a lump of earth (nineteenth century, Pskov area). Oaths were taken by swallowing a lump of earth (c. 1870, Orel area), or by putting it on one's head. Crop predictions were made in certain parts of Russia by digging a small hole in the ground and listening to what the Earth said: a sound like a full sleigh meant a good crop; that of an empty sleigh, a poor one. The festival of Moist Mother Earth was Kupala; it took its name from the mass bathing (kupati 'to bathe') which, along with prayers at springs, marked the observance. But it was primarily a celebration of the summer solstice, and featured great bonfires. The straw idol of Kupala was attired like a woman. During the festival, it was placed under a tree which had been cut down and stuck into the ground. Among the Baltic Slavs, the sacred tree was the birch, cut and prepared by women only, with all the branches stripped off; the crown alone was left, and that was hung with garlands and flowers. Sacrifices took place by it. This was a representation of the Tree linking Heaven and Earth." I wonder, aside from the Slavs and Celts, how many other offshoot Indo-European peoples held springs to be sacred places. Moist Mother Earth sounds to me like a goddess which might gain a great following among the women here at AS.

Message: Keep posting, Apiladey
Author: I've been reading all these, - Berosus Etana
Date: Jul 8, 1998 08:25
I haven't written much lately because the ancient Slavic religion is a subject where you know than I do. Despite my Russian history degree the old gods were just names to me, and I had a professor who considered the Kievan period (860-1240) important enough to write a short book on it!

Message: Of Perun and metal heads
Author: earning his name - Bacchus Ulpius
Date: Jul 8, 1998 14:18
I hope you did not think I was correcting you. It is the same thing on the Viking thread, several versions of the stories. Not surprising, with the small groups of people spread over large areas.

May I add another unorthodox theory regarding the different metals of his head? There is a Swedish expression "having a coppersmith" (inside your head), meaning hangover! At least Thor was known to enjoy drinking, maybe his colleague did too?

Message: I hope you did not think I thought you were correcting me
Author: - Apiladey ApilSin
Date: Jul 9, 1998 04:01
No, I enjoyed seeing your addition. I was getting tired of hearing an echo in here, and what you posted certainly had bearing. At the time I read it, I made the same assumption you did; that it was regional variation and worth mentioning. When I read Gimbutas' book, I only photocopied the 2 or 3 chapters which applied to my interests at the time. Except for some drawings of slavic homes, I don't know what else to post from what I have. I don't know if it's alright (where copyrights are concerned) to post drawings. As long as the author (or artist?) is credited, I assume it's alright. Does anybody have good info on descriptions of famous Slavs, or battles, or wars? The book isn't presently in front of me, but I know at one point the Slavs divided into an eastern and a western group. I believe the western group was credited with initiating our society's idea of burials. I didn't know how to take this. Was the book referring to 'buried under ground, with crying and praying'? A lot of earlier people were buried underground. Who can give me details of what was special about the West Slav burial ceremony. Why is it tied so closely with our burials?

Message: Slavic Baths
Author: Astrologue - Urgos Enkidu
Date: Jul 9, 1998 23:36
While the early Slavs didn't enjoy luxurious public bath houses as some other cultures did they did not remain completly stinky either. They had a small wooden hut with a stove inside. Once the stove heated up they would pour water on it releasing steam. Then holding bunches of straw or grass they would waft the steam around, an early sauna! I believe these huts were called istbas.

Message: An addition to the Slav baths...
Author: Always Off-Topic - Tibor Porcius
Date: Jul 10, 1998 01:00
I took part in an old native american ritual much the same. Some friends and I cut down saplings and more or less wove them into a dome. We filled in the holes with various brush and proceeded. We built a fire outside of the hut and placed round dry river rocks in it. As soon as they are hot I got in and placed the glowing rocks in the center. Pooring dippers of water it became a steam house. The native Americans believed this to cleanse the body and inner spirit. Native Americans, another culture which developed indepently.

My apologies for the lack of anyhthing Slavic:-)

Message: Well, the Slavs were the cleanest people in medieval Europe
Author: Slavophile - Berosus Etana, Patron
Date: Jul 13, 1998 08:14
Most of the folks living around them bathed as little as possible. They thought bathing didn't do you any good, and was morally questionable. Apparently it stemmed from one of the reasons why bathouses went out of style after the fall of Rome; people were worried that their belongings would get ripped off while they were in the pools.

When a pretender named Dmitri took over Russia in 1605, the Russians figured out he wasn't really one of them because he wouldn't take baths. They killed False Dmitri, stuffed his ashes in a cannon, and shot it off in the direction of Poland (the Poles had helped him seize the throne).

In that sense one could say that when the white man went forth to explore Africa, Asia and the Americas, he really came on strong!

Message: I Guess They Chose Who To Borrow From
Author: - Apiladey ApilSin
Date: Jul 13, 1998 11:47
They borrowed a few values from the Scyths and a bit of government from the Sarmatians. Thank heavens they didn't borrow their bathing habits from the Huns. The Huns believed in water spirits, who they thought would be offended if they washed either their bodies or their clothes in the water.

Message: A question for anyone....
Author: - Bigisdicis Cassius
Date: Aug 9, 1998 16:50
I admit I don't know much about the Slav's....so I just wanted to ask whether the Cossacks are a Slavic people or are they the remnants of Steppe peoples?

Message: Cossacks are Slavs (pretty much.)
Author: Optimus Princeps - Trajanus Ulpius, Patron
Date: Aug 9, 1998 17:20
They weren't always mounted either.

And as to wars with the Slavs, take your pick.

Croats, Serbs, Wends, Poles, Moravians, Russians, Cossacks. (The last two mixed in with lots of other peoples) I think they all pretty much count as slavs.

The Byzantines used "Slavic tribesmen" as auxiliaries, and they also show up as contingents in the Armies of the Avars, Magyars, Bulgars and Khazars. The Bulgars in their "Empire" relied heavily on subject slav infantry.

This, however, did not save them from the Emperor Basil II ("The Bulgar Basher").

It can be a real big subject.

Message: The Cossacks were a Tartaric Group
Author: - Hibernicus Terentius
Date: Aug 22, 1998 22:27
The Cossacks were a semi-nomadic Turkish group that inhabitted much of the Eurasian Steppes. The name Cossack is derived from Kazak, which I assume relates to the name of the present-day nation of Kazakhstan. The Cossacks also spoke a Turkish language rather than a Slavonic language. The Cossacks were both the scourge and mercenaries of several Eastern European countries. Long holding a degree of autonomy, in Russia they particularly became known for their service to the Czars ( perhaps in a way similar to how Sepoys were in service to the British East India Co.?) The Cossacks I'm pretty sure did do quite some intermingling with Slavic peoples, esp. in Russia. So no the Cossacks weren't Slavs but to what extent they were assimilated into Russian society? That would better be answered by someone who knows more than I.

Message: Question as to the appearance of Slavic Nations.
Author: Newcomer to Alliance - Hibernicus Terentius
Date: Aug 22, 1998 22:54
Is there any known knowledge on the evolution of medieval Slavic nations (ones that were independent of foreign domination). It seems to be a gap, you commonly hear of the division of the Slavs into Eastern and Western branches and then bamm there's a bunch of countries later on. Could someone clear this up, other than Russia which seems to have evolved from Muscovy, I am without solid info as to the above question. Here's another question (hey why not, while I'm at it): Technically speaking would the Baltic peoples(Lithuanians, Latvians, and Estonians) be considered Slavs? Because their languages aren't classified as Slavic.

Message: On the Slavs and their neighbors
Author: Russian History major - Berosus Etana, Patron
Date: Aug 22, 1998 23:44
The western Slavs became the Poles, Czechs and Slovaks. The southern or Yugo-Slavs became Serbs, Croats, Montenegrins, Slovenes and Macedonians. Some of the southern Slavs intermarried with the Bulgars, a Turkic tribe, to produce today's Bulgarians. As for the eastern Slavs, some intermarriage with the Finns took place, giving them a slightly darker complexion than the other Slavs have. The eastern Slavs split up relatively late, in the 13th-14th centuries. Those under direct Mongol rule became the Ukrainians; those under Lithuanian rule became Belarusians or "White Russians"; the rest became the Russians.

The Estonians are close cousins of the Finns, Turks and Hungarians; they are not Indo-European at all. The Latvians, Lithuanians and (now extinct) Prussians are Balts, not Slavs but another Indo-European group. This makes them about as closely related to the Slavs as the Germans or Celts would be.

I was of the impression that the Cossacks were Russians "gone native"; many Russian serfs ran away from the farms where they lived in misery, moved to the steppes, and adopted the lifestyle of the nomads who had lived there previously. If they were once Turkish, that element must have been swamped by the newcomers.

For most of the Slavs, the critical years in nation-building were between 800 and 1000 A.D. It came about because missionaries went there and converted them, making it easy for them to learn the ways of civilization. Usually the date of their conversion and the date when they became civilized are one and the same. Examples include Serbia & Croatia (879), Poland (966), and Russia (988).

Message: To Clear things up
Author: To anyone, but Betranus in particular - Hibernicus Terentius
Date: Aug 23, 1998 01:13
Ey its good to have a Russian major on line. That last paragraph was particularly helpful in giving a date, so basically once split into associated tribes they just needed a little more culture to establish nations. Curiously what exactly comprises being a Russian major (is it linguistic, historical, or as I assume a combo)? May I ask too, what's the diffrence between White Russian and Russian, was the former less influenced by Tataric and Mongol culture?

Message: Prussians
Author: - Hibernicus Terentius
Date: Aug 23, 1998 01:22
When he said the Prussians are extinct I presume he means the Slavic prussians of old. Just as one would say the British(Celtic Britons) were conquered by the English, yet the island is still called Britain. I figure he means something like that. The 20th century Brandenburg-Prussians where essentially germans (as you've stated "Berlin") The history revovling around Prussia though would surely make for a good topic for this thread.

Message: Prussians
Author: - sari Curius
Date: Aug 23, 1998 01:54
I know little on this topic, but would guess that there is a nomenclature problem here. The salient item is the epic about the Teutonic Knights (Roland et. al.) contesting with the Slavic invaders. I would doubt that a characterisation of Prussians as Slavs would please the local folk!

Message: Hibernicus is right--I didn't mean today's Germans
Author: Back to tie up loose ends, - Berosus Etana, Patron
Date: Aug 23, 1998 07:14
And if you REALLY want to split hairs, Berlin is part of Brandenburg, not Prussia. Brandenburg acquired the land of Prussia by inheritance in 1618. In 1701 the elector of Brandenburg was allowed to change his title to king of Prussia, as his reward for joining the anti-French coalition in the War of the Spanish Succession. Previously the Holy Roman emperor was the only German head of state who could call himself king or emperor.

Anyway, in modern Prussia you'll have a hard time finding any Germans; Stalin saw to that. At the end of World War II he divided it between Poland and the USSR, changed the name of Konigsberg to Kaliningrad, deported all the Germans to East Germany, and shipped in Poles and Russians to take their place.

On my Russian history degree, it involved three history courses, one year of the language, and individual courses on government and politics of the USSR, Marxist philosophy, and Soviet sociology. I don't remember what else I did to get it--that was back in 1982.

Message: Oh, My Goodness!
Author: - Apiladey ApilSin, Patron
Date: Aug 23, 1998 07:23
Someone just asked me where this place was. After telling her, I told her it had slowed down quite a bit. I made my daily sojourn here expecting to find nothing, and there's a party going on. I think I posed this question once before on this line but does anybody know the details of the burial ceremony for the western Slavs which, as I've read, was the forerunner for burial ceremonies for modern western society? I'd also like to see some of the stuff us guys normally like to read; heroic battles, particular strategies or tactics. Wow, this is great, keep the posts coming people.

Message: A Cossack Lesson in Diplomacy
Author: Or, How to Flame People, by - Berosus Etana, Patron
Date: Aug 23, 1998 19:58
I thought you'd get a kick out of this. In the 17th century the Turks and their allies, the Crimean Tatars, controlled the northern shore of the Black Sea. Often the Cossacks would raid those territories, so in 1677 Sultan Mohammed IV warned the current hetman (chief) of the Zaporogian Cossacks, Ivan Sirko, to stop it. In response Sirko fired off this letter, the most offensive ever written from one head of state to another. I am quoting from a 1950 "Ripley's Believe it or Not!" paperback, as I give you the text of that letter:

"Thou Turkish Satan--thou damned brother of the devil! What manner of beast art thou? The Evil One vomits what thou swallowest! We fear not thy army, thou Babylonian cook, Macedonian stavebinder, brewer of Jerusalem, Alexandrian goat-thief, Egyptian swineherd, Tartar ram, Kamenetz butcherboy, Podolian evildoer, seed of the very devil clown of Hades, swinesnout and horse's tail, red-haired she-dog, unbaptized skull. May the Evil One catch thee!

The date we know not for we have no calendar. The moon is in the sky, the year in the book, and outside of this it is the same day here as with thee!"

(There is a contemporary painting of Sirko writing that letter, surrounded by his henchmen. From the looks on their faces, all of them must have been roaring drunk at the time.)

After hearing all that, the sultan paused just long enough to have the courier who brought the message put to death. Then he sent an army of 55,000 men against the Cossacks; none of those men ever saw Turkey again. However, Sirko did not enjoy his victory for long. He also managed to offend Russia's rulers, and one night the Tsar's men kidnapped him and took him to Russia's version of the Tullianum, Siberia, where he died in 1689.

Message: Oh the folly of Prussia
Author: back again - Hibernicus Terentius
Date: Aug 26, 1998 00:03
How could Poland have offered the fiefdom of Prussia to Brandenburg? With this Poland created one of her worst enemies. Was Prussia still full of dissenting descendants of the Teutonic Knights when given away? Or was it a deal between a powerful nobleman in the Sejm?

Forgive me ApilSin, I'm clueless about the burial ceremonies.

Message: Roland im Preussen
Author: befuddled - Damonqui Yupanqui
Date: Aug 26, 1998 00:28
On August 23, Sari Curius wrote on Prussians:
"The salient item is the epic about the Teutonic Knights (Roland et. al.) contesting with the Slavic invaders."

Perhaps I misunderstood. Is there another body of Roland legends of which I know nothing? The only such character I know is Roland the Frank (Orlando to Castillians and Italians), who died holding off the Saracen Arabs. Had he an afterlife, several centuries later, roaming the Baltic plains?

How exciting it is to think that the Chanson de Roland and Orlando Furioso had an Allemanish counterpart: Rolands Lied!