Message: Native Americans (North or South America)
Author: - Conachar Morna
Date: Feb 24, 1998 19:58
An area to talk about the life and culture of Native Americans...

Message: civilization?
Author: - Conachar Morna
Date: Feb 24, 1998 20:08
I know most groups of Native Americans do not qualify to be called a civilization. Only the Incas, Mexica (Aztecs), the Olmecs, the Mayans, and the people of Teotihuacan can fit into the category of civilized people.

But if you look at the Americas as a whole, they had great diversity of culture, language, lifestyles, and religion. I think that they make an interesting topic... I hope I'm not the only one....

Message: Agree
Author: - Swnw Horemheb
Date: Feb 25, 1998 00:20
I agree with you in that the Americas had an extensive number of varied cultures that make a good topic for discussion. As to whether civilized or not, I guess it depends a lot on definition. True, the Incas and Mayas erected huge structures and were quite advanced in science and math, but other groups such as the Mississipians of Cahokia also made large structures and had extensive interaction with other cultures of the time. Heck, even the Taíno indians of the Caribbean (where I'm from) had a fairly well organized social system, interacted with other groups, and left their legacy to posterity in the way of petroglyphs and ceremonial parks.

Message: Civilization again...
Author: - Conachar Morna
Date: Feb 25, 1998 00:27
I have read that the definition that is used by Anthropologists (that is what my major is), is any culture having: religion, stone structures, complex language, written language, numerical system, and domestication of animals other than dogs. I think there may have been more to the definition. It is late and I am doing it from memory.....

Message: oops
Author: - Conachar Morna
Date: Feb 25, 1998 00:28
Forgot metalurgy and astrology or astronomy...

Message: Civilization?
Author: - Maria Marius
Date: Feb 25, 1998 00:45
I don't think that we need to focus on whether a particular group was "civilized." Some of the most interesting cultures (at least to me) were nomadic rather than "technically civilized."

I recently started reading about the Apache after finishing a novelized version of the life of Quannah Parker's mother (Cynthia Parker of Texas). Talk about a group of people who maximized their adaptation to a hostile environment!

I'm particularly interested in the differences between Southwestern and Northeastern Native American spirituality.

Message: I think the Native Americans were only missing two elements from Conochar's list
Author: Talks a lot about civilization - Berosus Etana
Date: Feb 25, 1998 10:11
And those were writing and metallurgy. From what I gather, when it came to developing civilization, the peoples of the western hemisphere were handicapped in three ways:

1. Nobody used the wheel much.
2. Nobody learned how to forge iron.
3. The only domesticated animals were dogs and members of the llama family. (However, in terms of plant crops the New World may have been better off than the Old.)

Because of that the Old World had a definite technological advantage when East and West finally met. There was progress toward true civilization, though; it just went at a slower place. The Iroquois had a progressive government that gave some ideas to the writers of the U.S. Constitution; the southwestern tribes raised fullfledged cities like Mesa Verde; Sequoyah singlehandedly developed a Cherokee alphabet. Perhaps if the "500 nations" had been left alone for a few more centuries, they would have produced a civilization comparable to that of the Mayans and the Incas.

Message: Actually...
Author: - Conachar Morna
Date: Feb 26, 1998 00:30
In North America, the things that lead people to say that the Natives were not civilized were lack of domesticated animals (other than dogs) (side note, there is evidence that the Mogollon people in the South East raised turkeys and such), no major use of the wheel (that was one I forgot), and lack of a written language. The part about metalurgy is surprizing. I have read about copper being used all the time (in some cultures). Even to the point that it was placed in a fire and then shaped.

Message: Have dissapeared the Mayans?
Author: - Mitrina Cornelius
Date: Mar 15, 1998 11:44
Are actual Mayans descendants from people who built Tikal, Chichen Itza and Uxmal? Or the "true" descendants dissapeared misteriously, as some investigators say? (Climate change, to pass to fouth dimension, etc.)

Message: Have dissapeared the Mayans?
Author: - Mitrina Cornelius
Date: Mar 15, 1998 11:47
Are actual Mayans descendants from people who built Tikal, Chichen Itza and Uxmal? Or the "true" descendants dissapeared misteriously, as some investigators say? (Climate change, to pass to fouth dimension, etc.)

Message: Native Americans Early Europeans
Author: - Brighid Cormac
Date: Mar 19, 1998 00:17
Some early European settlers appreciated the native Americans, the myths.They were especially impresswd by the Haidia,Snohomish and Quinault tribes.The Haida creation story is about the beginning of time ,Sha-lana ruled a kingdom which lay high in the clouds.Below,a vast empty sea streached in every direction.When Sha-lanas chief servant, Raven was sacked ,he was so horrified that he flapped his wings in despair and in so doing stirred up the primeval ocean, causing rocks to grow.Raven then proceeded to create human beings from shells and intoduce the sun and fire. He stole the latter from heaven.The worst victims for the native Amercans,was the European settlement the killing of the wild animals ,beaver,elk and the buffalo but to name a few.

Message: on marriges...
Author: - Conachar Morna
Date: Mar 19, 1998 00:26
I know that some groups did marry between clans for status and such. But not so much outside of the tribe. The only one I know of off hand is John Rolfe and Pocahontas. But that is between a Native and an Englishman...

Message: On Marriages II
Author: - Sulla Didius
Date: Mar 19, 1998 06:58
I tend to think that arranged marriages, if they occurred, would have been more common among the highly stratified societies like the Aztec or Inca. Such marriages would have cemented alliances between families and/or clans, and allowed them to maintain their prominence. Any ideas? Oh, and by the way, by far the worst thing that native Americans faced were European diseases, against which they had little resistance. In some areas, two thirds of the native population was wiped out by smallpox, measles, and other illnesses. This, as much as anything, is what weakened their ability to resist the taking of their lands by European settlers.

Message: Does any one know the Myth about why the raven has no color?
Author: - Mandellia Ramesses
Date: Mar 19, 1998 09:42
I heard it once, and I've been looking for it. If someone could tell it to me again, or tell me where I could possibly find it, I would be grateful.

Message: on marriges and ravens...
Author: - Conachar Morna
Date: Mar 19, 1998 14:47
Also in the South Eastern tribes such as the Natchez. Were they had "The Great Sun" who was very much like a king. In those groups marriges had political power as well.

On disease... Not only did it wipe out large portions of groups, it wiped out whole groups as well. For instance, the Mandan who are extinct today, were wiped out by small pox.

As for the raven legend, you have to specify the tribe. Every tribe had stories telling why animals were the way they were. I think I remember one about the raven, sayin that the Raven brought fire to man, by flying up to the sun. He got some of the fire and carried it back in his beak, but he was singed all black by the flames on the sun. I don't remember which tribe that belongs to, but I think that it is a Northwest Coastal group.

Message: Albino (or White) Animals...but no Raven Lacking Color
Author: - Maria Marius
Date: Mar 19, 1998 21:30
As a general matter, Native Americans accorded a high level of respect for albino or white animals. For example, the Seneca selected white animals for sacrifice. Among the Plains tribes, the Crow dedicated white buffalos to their supreme deity. The Yurok of California believed that the White Coyote was the father of all coyotes on earth.

There are also references to the negative supernatural power of white animals. (E.g., it was a sign of bad luck for an Algonquian hunter to see a white animal while on the hunt.)

If you have access to it, Funk & Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology & Legend has a very lengthy article about the Raven in various myth systems, world-wide. Perhaps the article would help you remember the context in which you saw the reference to the Raven of no Color.

Message: Raven....
Author: - Conachar Morna
Date: Mar 20, 1998 13:11
I think they may be refering to the fact that a raven's plumage shimmers, showing no true color.....

Message: Interesting History
Author: - Nuana Atrebas
Date: Mar 22, 1998 19:19
I have been reading what everyone has been saying about the Native American history unfortunately we dont hear much about their history and culture in Europe.

I think this is great idea, to have this topic, for people like myself who knew nothing about there history or culture.

So please keep up the good work.

Message: I'm looking for the Cherokee version of the story.
Author: - Molmoria Beag
Date: Mar 27, 1998 16:21
Yes Canachar was right, I meant the myth as to why raven feathers have no colored highlights or tints.

Message: Also, can anyone tell me...
Author: - Molmoria Beag
Date: Mar 27, 1998 16:25
...what tribe the legend of The White Buffalo Maiden comes from? I've read the story, but don't remember who to associate it with. If anyone is bored, I'd like to read it again.

Message: seems to me...
Author: - Conachar Morna
Date: Mar 27, 1998 18:52
That the White Buffalo Maiden was either Mandan, Blackfoot, or Crow... I can't remember exactly off-hand... I can remember the legend itself, but the tribe it is from eludes me at the moment... The Plains tribes aren't my really my area of study.

As for the story on the Raven, I will look the next time I go home. All my books are there. I have a book on Native legends... I'll check it out and see what I can find...

Message: Triva...
Author: - Conachar Morna
Date: Apr 1, 1998 17:26
What was the worst defeat that the US ever had to the Native Americans...?

Message: Lets see...
Author: Native American himself - Trajanus Ulpius
Date: Apr 3, 1998 08:41
I would say probably Chancellorsville, where the Federal government suffered a total defeat and loss of 17,000 men to another native american army.

Message: haha... funny Trajanus...
Author: - Conachar Morna
Date: Apr 3, 1998 23:19
You know what is meant... American Indians.. clear things up?

Message: Sharmens? (North Native Americans)
Author: - Brighid Cormac
Date: Apr 4, 1998 20:02
Sharmans, or medicine-men, act as interpreters and intermediaries between people and the spirits, in matters of hunting, the weather, battle and misfortune, and are always key figures in Native American Societies.

Stories of the origins of maize appear in myths and are symbolized in Native American art in fabric designs. Maize cultivation marked the transition from hunting to agriculture for many Native Americans.

If anyone has any information on Sharmans I would love to hear from you as I dont know much about them and their culture. Thank you.

Message: Don't squeeze the Sharmans!
Author: Har Har Har - Trajanus Ulpius
Date: Apr 6, 1998 23:27
(sorry, I couldn't resist)

I would note, that each tribe has its own practices, so one shouldn't generalize about all the tribes. What is right and proper for one may not be for another.

Message: Worst defeat..
Author: a little more seriously - Trajanus Ulpius
Date: Apr 6, 1998 23:46
Do you want raw numbers...that is most casualties, or percentage casualties of those engaged?

In raw numbers, it would have to be Fort Recovery in 1794. 2000 Militia under General St. Clair were attacked by a combined force of American Indians under Little Turtle and routed with the loss of 900 men.

Message: Ravens
Author: - Beorn Beag
Date: Apr 7, 1998 13:41
The story I heard is either Haida or Tlingit. Originally Raven was all white. He went and posed as a baby to the woman of the Giant who owned the sun. Through typical baby hijinks, he finally discovered where the sun was kept and when the Giant was gone, hollered and cried and carried on, and nothing the woman would do would pacify him. Eventually, she gave him the box with the sun to play with. When she wasn't looking, he opened it and turning back into Raven, grabbed it in his beak and flew out over the World, chased by the Giant. The heat of carrying the sun burnt him black. He released the sun into the sky.

Raven, in these NW Pacific cultures, is typically akin to Loki in Scandinavian mythology: a strong supporter of Man, but very mischeivous to boot. I believe the SW cultural equivalent is the Coyote?

Message: Worst defeat?
Author: - Beorn Beag
Date: Apr 7, 1998 13:48
While that might have been so, to go by percentage, wouldn't Little Big Horn be worst (from the white man's viewpoint, anyway) both in percentage of involved group lost and psychological impact?

Message: Actually....
Author: - Conachar Morna
Date: Apr 7, 1998 15:05
Trajanus is right.....

The army of St. Clair was made up of around 1300 soldiers.... While the combined forces of Miami, Shawnee and Lenni Lenape, consisted of about 1000 warriors...

The Americans lost around 602 men with 300 wounded. The Natives lost 66 men.

To make matters worse this dropped the US army to 300 soldiers... if the British would have attacked then, the US would not be free...

As for Custer... he only lost 210 men compared to 602.... there is quite a difference there....

For more info..... go here...

http://earlyamerica.com/review/summer/battle.html

Message: Perhaps so,
Author: - Beorn Beag
Date: Apr 7, 1998 16:58
but I wonder if you understood my question. True, Custer lost only 210 men...out of 210. Little Big Horn is recognized by many, while the battle involving St. Clair isn't probably anywhere as well known. Plus another way of looking at it is Custer lost 100% of his men, St. Clair lost less than 50%. OTOH, the loss of Custer and his men is a big historical brohaha, with little real impact on subsequent events, while St. Clairs' loss is more a little historical footnote with significant "what ifs" attached.

That is what I was asking about, actually: how were you defining "worst."

Message: On Custer....
Author: - Conachar Morna
Date: Apr 7, 1998 19:57
Custer only lost about 225 men out of 490.

Sorry had the wrong figure.

He split his command between himself, Major Reno, and Captain Benteen.

The battle is only remember because no one from Custers command survived, save one horse named Comanche. This battle may have been won by the US if Custer hadn't been so incredible stupid (ignoring his scouts estimates of enemy strength) or so full of himself (if he would have waited a day he would have been re-enforced by General Terry.) Colonel Custer got what he deserved (if you know anything about him he wasn't a very nice person to the Indians.)

Reno and Benteen's units escaped... Custer with 220 men lost to combined forces of between 3000-4000 Lakota, Cheyenne, and Arapaho. It was a slaughter...

If you want read more about the battle... Probably the best account of the Little Big Horn fight is in Wooden Leg: A Warrior Who Fought Custer Interpreted by Thomas B. Marquis

Message: On Custer,
Author: - Beorn Beag
Date: Apr 8, 1998 11:50
I've absolutely no disagreement with your opinion of Custer. They mirror mine, as a matter of fact. And if you consider the part of his command not there as actually being part of the battle (which I didn't as I assumed you were including only the forces directly involved in any particular battle) then I'll agree it's about the same actual loss percentage as for St. Clair. I know they were also searching for the same band, so in that aspect, I suppose they could be considered part of the battle. Also, because of the possibilities inherent in the situation, I'll agree the St. Clair affair was a worse situation.

Message: Tricksters (in reference to the 'Ravens' post below...)
Author: - Kyla Cormac
Date: Apr 9, 1998 11:21
Right, Coyote is the most common SW equivalent to Raven.

Trickster spirits appear to have been very prevalent worldwide-some variant appears in nearly every pantheon/mythology I've encountered. In one area of Africa, for example, Anansi the spider takes this role; in another it's Rabbit...incidentally, a rabbit or a hare seems to have been a very popular embodiment of the trickster...not absolutely sure why. :)

Usually a trickster's role in the world is rather ambivalent; while he does contribute to the world in fairly major ways (Raven bringing the sun, for example) he usually does so through impulse, misadventure, and of course the sharpness of his own wits. The effects of a trickster's efforts are varied; sometimes the world is left a better place for his actions...and sometimes not (some tricksters are also credited with bringing about the entry of disease into the world, or-as with Loki-the apparently wanton destruction of something with potential for good).

Just thought I'd throw that out there for informative purposes... :)

Kyla Cormac

Message: Dog Soldiers
Author: Straight Shooting Star - flavius Horatius
Date: Apr 10, 1998 08:19
Both the Cheyenne and the Kiowa are reputed to have a tradition of the dedicated warrior clan that would enter battle with a long trailer which they would stake to the ground with a single arrow in a gesture to show that they would never cede the ground that they had staked their claim to.

The motif of the dog soldier has been expropriated by some veterans of the Viet Nam era and also by the venerable Boy Scout honor camping association, the tribe of Mic-O-Say; however, in the case of the Scouts, the allusion is to the dedication of the Scouter to continue to serve as a one willing to put up his wealth, rather than his life, to continue the traditions.

Apparently, there is a relatively new book by Jean Afton on the Cheyenne dog soldiers, but I have not yet had the opportunity to read it; however, I notice that Amazon.com does have it available.

Now, what about the traditions among some tribes regarding the males who were reported to have elected to dress as women or were forced on ocassion to so dress?

Message: Trail of Tears
Author: Straight Shooting Star - flavius Horatius
Date: Apr 13, 1998 06:10
There are many misconceptions and myths surrounding the Cherokee exile from the southeastern states to the lands west of the Mississippi.

First of all, many Cherokees voluntarily abandoned their homeland before the Trail of Tears episode and moved to what is now known as Oklahoma because they saw the writing on the wall that their culture was being threatened.

Secondly, the impiety and cruelty of the Jacksonian policy is one of the crimes of his administration in allowing such hostile actions to be sanctioned against a peaceable people.

Thirdly, the statistics for how many died along the Trail of Tears has been debated and discussed by quite a few people with no satisfactory conclusion.

Fourthly, much of the Trail of Tears was actually accomplished by river travel, and not by walking on foot as some imagine.

Fifthly, the real tragedy of the Trail of Tears was the violent turmoil that erupted within the Cherokee people when they reunited with their relatives in Oklahoma and turned savagely upon one another in an effort to find a scapegoat for their misery at losing their homeland.

Finally, much more could be said, but your questions provided no clear focus.

Message: Current beliefs and practices
Author: - Nausikaa Xanthippos
Date: Apr 13, 1998 14:00
I have some friends who are Lakota and have met some of their friends who are also native (Shawnee). I've talked some with them and participated in a few sweat lodges. I'm rather curious about native experience in the latter half of the 20th century. If anyone here is native or has any knowledge about these things, I'd love to hear about it.

Message: Shamans in response to Brighid
Author: - Nausikaa Xanthippos
Date: Apr 13, 1998 14:03
I'm assuming this is what you meant. What did you want to know specifically? Specific practices? Shamans and maize? I'm an anthro student and so I have a pretty decent general knowledge of these things, more specific in some cases, and I'd be glad to try and answer any questions you have. I'm fascinated with shamanistic religion (not all Native cultures were, you know!), so it's something I'm curious about, too.

Message: Peru
Author: - Nausikaa Xanthippos
Date: Apr 13, 1998 14:08
I've been reading Mario Vargas Llosa and talking about Peru a lot lately in one of my classes, and I'm very very curious about modern native culture in Peru. The ancient Incas were both imperialistic and evangelistic, so I'm wondering did this carry over in any way? Like have there been movements among the native populations that drew on a sense of being "chosen people" or anything? I know that early on after the Conquest there were movements like these. Just wondering.

Message: Trail Of Tears
Author: - Kallistos Alexandros
Date: Apr 14, 1998 07:54
There are many books on this subject, but none I have read mentions the interesting fact that many Cherokees escaped along the way and were absorbed into local culture.This accounts, in part, for so many American families with a Cherokee among their ancestors.

I still keep the iron cooking pot and the meat cleaver my great great grandmother carried with her on the trail of tears. She escaped and married into the french colony in Kansas from which part of my family is descended.Research into this interesting side light would be interesting.

There are so many American families with a Cherokee "princess" in their geneology as to make it cliché.

Message: Forced March
Author: - Lugene Nebuchadnezzar
Date: Apr 14, 1998 09:22
Trail of tears, I believe, was the enforced march from N. Carolina (?) to Oklahoma ordered by Andrew Jackson, (who by the way, ordered more Native American deaths than any president) in order to move the Cherokee tribe so that "Americans" could keep the land. I assume it was because of a string of broken treaties by the US. Anyone else?

Message: Just a comment on how good ole Andy Jackson lives on
Author: - Nausikaa Xanthippos
Date: Apr 14, 1998 16:40
I live in Tallahassee, Florida, where the native population (men, women, children, old folks - everyone) was massacred by Jackson, and every year guess who's the figurehead of the Springtime Tallahassee parade? Despite YEARS of protest by natives, other minority groups, and concerned citizens. The response of teh parade board: "It's a matter of principal. We're not changing it. If they want to make a difference, they should join the board." Of course a seat on the baord costs $500 in membership fees per year. Just thought I'd share that. The spirit that made tragic events like the Trail of Tears possible lives on!

Message: More on the "Dog Soldiers..."
Author: a bored - Conachar Morna
Date: Apr 14, 1998 20:31
Actually they were a warrior society among the Cheyenne, known as the Crazy Dogs. And because I am bored I am going to post this... An excerpt from "Wooden Leg: A Warrior who Fought Custer" Interpreted by: Thomas B. Marquis

The warrior societies were the foundation of tribal government among the Cheyennes. That is, the members of the warrior societies elected the chiefs who governed the people. Every ten years the whole tribe would get together for the special purpose of choosing forty big chiefs. These forty then would select four past chiefs, or "old men" chiefs, to serve as supreme advisers to them and to the tribe. There were not hereditary chiefs among the Cheyennes.
The Elk warriors, the Crazy Dog warriors and the Fox warriors were the ruling societies of the Northern Cheyennes. Other like organizations had been in existence before my time, but during all of the period of my boyhood and manhood those three were the only active ones in our northern branch of the double tribe. Each warrior society had a leading war chief and nine little war chiefs. So, there were many men who might claim the title of chief. All together there where seventy-four such officials, counting both the tribal rulers and the warrior society rulers. There were four "old man" tribal chiefs, forty tribal big chiefs, three leading warrior chiefs, and twenty-seven little warrior chiefs. Ordinarily they ranked or held respect in this order, the old men first, the little warrior chiefs last.
The warrior chiefs had original authority only in their societies, each in his own special organization. By alternation, thought, the tribal chiefs delegated one group or another of the warrrior chiefs and their followers were called upon to serve as active subordinate officials to carry out the orders promulgated by the big chiefs. Such warrior society group, when on this duty, were like the white man's sheriffs, policemen, soldiers.
Promotion in public life followed the line from private member of a warrior society to the little chief of the same, then to leading chief, then to big chief of the tribe, finally to old man ciefs were members of one or another of the warrior societies. It often occurred that in time of battle or in organized great hunting expeditions a tribal big chief or an old man chief had, during such time, the low standing of a mere private person subordinate to the rule of the warrior chiefs. And, in many instances some man might be at the same time both a warrior chief and a tribal big chief or even an old man chief. Little Wolf had this honor put upon him. Even after he had become one of the four old men chiefs he was kept in office as leading chief of the Elk warriors.
Four unmarried and virtuous young women were chosen as honorary members of each warrior society. If one of these entered into marriage or became unchaste she lost her membership and some other young woman was chosen in her place. The young women took no active part in the proceedings. They were allowed merely to sit inside the lodge of assemblage, there quietly looking on. At the society dances no women were permitted to do any of the work. Two little chiefs were appointed on each occasion to do the cooking, to serve the feast or to perform any other menial service necessary. The meetings or dances were held in privately owned lodges of members. The coverings were lifted or were removed so that spectators might view the affair from the outside. The three different societies had the same character of organization, and their social and military operations were carried out on the same general lines. A man could join only one of them.
I joined the Elk warriors when I was fourteen years old. We were camped then at Antelope creek, near the Black Hills. Their herald chiefs were going about the camp circle calling, "All Elk warriors come for a dance and a feast." They were gathering at a large tepee made of two family lodges combined into one. Left Handed Shooter, at that time leading cief of the Elks, came to my father's lodge and said to me:
"We want you to join the Elk warriors."
Oh, how important I felt at receiving this invitation! I had been longing for it, waiting to be asked, to get this honorable standing already held by my father and my two older brothers. Seventy or more Elks were dancing. Occasionally one fired a gunshot into the air. As they danced they weer scraping their "rattlesnake sticks," the special emblem of Elk membership. Each of these sticks was made of hard wood, in the form of a stubby rattlesnake seven or eight inces long. On each stick was cut forty notches. Another stick was used for scraping back and forth along the notches. The combined operation of many instruments made a noise resmebling the rattlesnake's warning hum. Each member owned his personal wooden stick, but there was one made from an elk horn that was kept always by someone as a trustee of the society. No payment nor gift was necessary for admission inot a warrior organization...

- Wooden Leg, Northern Cheyenne

Message: The Trail of Tears, a bigger picture
Author: My brother thinks he's a Seminole, - Berosus Etana
Date: Apr 15, 1998 00:22
The Cherokees weren't the only tribe deported to Oklahoma by Andrew Jackson. Jackson felt that white and red men could never live together, so his "final solution" was to remove every Indian living east of the Mississippi. In the northeast there were few left; large native confederacies like the Iroquois and the Great Lakes tribes had been broken up long before this time. In the southeast, however, there were five big tribes: the Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Creek and Seminole. The Seminole refused to go quietly, and it took three wars to get them out of north and central Florida.

Like Nausikaa, I'm a Floridian. My home town of Orlando got started when the US Army started building forts in the middle of Seminole country. My brother spends most weekends at Seminole War reinactments, calling himself Okahumpkee and dressing in a homemade Seminole costume. I suggested that he ought to become a citizen of Macchu Picchu; so far he hasn't taken me up on it. If you ever meet somebody in AS with a name like Okahumpkee Inca, well, you'll know where he's coming from!

Check out my brother's webpages at http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/1743/

Message: Spider Women.
Author: Brighid - Brighid Cormac
Date: Apr 18, 1998 23:12
In the mythology of the Navaho,a benevolent creature who helped Nayenezgani and Tobadzistsini to defeat the powers of evil.While travelling to the home of thier father,the sun god Tsohanoai, the two brothers climbed down a hole and met the Spider Women, called Naste Estsan, she warned the brothers of four dangers which lay ahead of them and gave them two magic feathers.One of these feathers would enable them to defeat their enemies the other would preserve thier lives.

Message: A quick correction regarding the status of the Seminole
Author: The Oklahoma Cherokee descended - Quintillius Fabius
Date: Apr 19, 1998 22:12
There were five "civilized" tribes in the Southeast: the Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creek, Cherokee, and Seminole. Or were there? It turns out that alot of historians agree that the Seminole were, in fact, not a separate tribe at all, rather they were simply members of some of the southernmost bands of the Creeks who refused to be deported by Federal troops.

Since the Spaniards had long since decimated the once-thriving large and powerful Indian towns in the "Floridas" (both west and east, for more on this topic see DeSoto, Hernan), these rebellious Creeks were able to flee into territory that was so inhospitable that no American Army was interested in chasing them for quite a while. Of course Jackson himself had trod this very area as late as 1819, chasing down refugeees from the mopping up he did after the battle of Horseshoe Bend in Alabama in 1814 (a month or two before his fight against the British in New Orleans). Interestingly enough, Florida was still Spanish at the time (it was sold to the U.S. in the Adams-Onis treaty of 1819), although U.S. Secretary of State John Quincy Adams did use the consternation caused by Jackson's taking Pensacola and hanging a couple of "British spies" there to U.S> advantage, ensuring the Spanish that it was a matter of time before the U.S. simply took the place outright, and that they ought to get something out of the deal.

Message: On Worst Defeats
Author: Astrologue - Urgos Enkidu
Date: Jun 22, 1998 23:55
General Braddock did not do so well either. In 1755 he and 1460 men were attacked by an opposing force of roughly 1000 men. The enemy inflicted 900 casulaties killing Braddock.

Message: Reasons for the Settlement of America
Author: Astrologue - Urgos Enkidu
Date: Jun 23, 1998 00:03
Europeans beginning in 1500 went on a spree of global domination. Eventually they would lord over Asia, Africa, Australia, and the Americas. However, only in the Americas were the Europeans able to settle. Why? I propose that the massive destruction wrought by smallpox, measles, influenza, and a few cases of the plague which annihilated entire Native populations allowed the newcomers to move into formerly occupied villages replete with fields of corn. Had the diseases not taken such a devestating toll, America may have been controlled by Europeans in the end but it would have been much more difficult if not impossible to conquer the land. Any thoughts?

Message: On disease and European conquests
Author: Statistician - Berosus Etana
Date: Jun 23, 1998 08:35
The effect of diseases, epidemics, etc. on history has only been appreciated within the past generation. However, I don't believe the claims some make that microbes killed over 90% of the Native Americans. One half to two thirds would do the damage we see. Remember that the worst plague in European history, the Black Death of the 14th century, wiped out just over a third of Europe's population.

As for the other continents:

Australia was mostly empty. It evaded conquest until the 1800s because it was so far away. Britain wasn't interested in settling it, for example, until it lost America as a dumping ground for unwanted prisoners.

Asia had dense populations, and civilizations that were more advanced than those of the West until the 18th century. Once Europe caught up, though, it could slap down huge Asian armies with only a handful of men.

In Africa the diseases killed intruders, not natives. Malaria was particularly bad, doing in 60% of Europeans who came to West Africa and stayed at least a year. Exploration and conquest of the dark continent only became feasible with the invention of antimalarial drugs like quinine.

Message: On Disease...........
Author: Medicineman - Krystus Domitius, Patron
Date: Jun 23, 1998 20:04
Let's see...

2 million indians in the rainforest.

white man bring measals, small pox, and a veriaty of diseases.

Now there's less than 200,000 indians in the rainforest.

Without using your fingers, just how many did we shove into the hole?!

Message: Mortality Rates
Author: Astrologue - Urgos Enkidu
Date: Jun 23, 1998 21:19
"But for the natives in these parts, God hath so pursued them, as for 300 miles square space the greatest part of of them are swept away by the smallpox which still continue among them. So as God hath thereby cleared our title to this place, those who remain in these parts, being in all not 50, have put themselves at our protection"

John Winthrop governor of Massachusets Bay Colony

Several pilgram accounts survive all of which put the death rate at 90-95%. Not only did this reduction in manpower enable the Europeans to gain a foothold but it also had a severe effect on the survivors: "those that are left, have their courage much abated, and their countenance in dejected...despaired so much that they lost confidence in their gods and the priests destroyed the sacred objects of the tribe."

The most ironic thing is that before the Europeans and Africans arrived native Americans were healthier than almost any other people. Unfortunatly this lack of disease made them so suceptible when they finally made contact with the European and African newcomers.

Message: Superior Culture
Author: Astrologue - Urgos Enkidu
Date: Jun 23, 1998 21:30
In the first few centuries of the triracial history of the Aericas it was common for whites and blacks to leave the colonies and live amongst various Indian tribes in almost embarrassing numbers. After Col.Bouquet defeated the Ohio's the white 'captives' had to be "bound hand and foot" and dragged back into 'civilization'. This phenemon continued to occurr until 1890 while the reverse was a much rarer happening.

One could also hypothesize that the Iriquois Confedaration was a role model for the Albany Plan and later the Articles of Confederation.

"It would be a strange thing if six nations of ignorant savages should be capable of forming a scheme for such a union and be able to execute it in such a manner that it has subsisted ages and appears insloble; and yet that a like union should be impracticable for ten or a dozen English colonies." Benjamin Franklin 1754

Ideas such as democratic representaion, free speech, and public assembly all existed in the Iriquois Confederation.

Message: What if.....
Author: JJ - Jahovalla Junius
Date: Jul 6, 1998 04:04
What if the Native Americans weren't so subsebtable to disease. They, just by their numbers would have over come any settlers. If they did not think that the spaniards were god's on white horses, they would have definately over taken the settlers. And today they would have had a very advanced culture. Their medicine alone would be far more advanced than anything we have today. If any one agrees please tell me and post it.

Message: The longest lasting religion
Author: - Apiladey ApilSin
Date: Jul 6, 1998 08:30
Unfortunately, I gave the copy of the newspaper to an anthropologist friend of mine, so I don't have the figures in front of me. On the front page of the San Diego Union-Tribune a couple of weeks ago was an article saying that the longest lasting religion had been that of the Aborigines in Australia, but that record had been significantly eclipsed by a religion in the American southwest. It's not my field, but I thought you might be interested. Does anyone else have the figures?

Message: Agriculture west of the Colonies
Author: Querying - Urgos Enkidu
Date: Jul 19, 1998 00:15
I know and have posted about the fact that certain Native tribes in the eastern United States had developed and practiced agriculture beforew the first European settlers arrived. Recently I was reading some of Thomas Jefferson's writings; at one point he mentions that it was the duty of the new Republic to teach the Natives the European ways of things including agriculture. He was mostly speaking of the tribes west of the early states. My question is where all these tribes nomadic hunters or is there documentation of tribes practicing agriculture west of the thirteen states and old Tom was just practicing a little native=savage prejuduce. Thanks for any and all responses.

Message: The Hopi, The Pawnee, Cahokia groups, etc...............
Author: gardening as we speak........ - Amenemhat Thutmose
Date: Jul 20, 1998 03:35
Agriculture was common to native american indigen populations before european intervention. Many of the Pueblo cultures, including the Hopi, were dependent upong agriculture, and many of the Plains indians, including the Pawnee, grew corn/maize, and almost all of the eastern and midwestern groups practiced agriculture. On top of this, the civilizations of the Maya, Aztec, Mixtec, Toltec, etc., all practiced agriculture, and were also west of the Mississippi.

Message: The cliffdwelling communities of the southwestern US would have been impossible without agriculture.
Author: Statistician - Berosus Etana, Patron
Date: Jul 20, 1998 07:31
I said this before on the Babylon board but it is worth repeating here. Before the industrial revolution only irrigated farmland in hot climates could support a population density exceeding 100 people per square mile. Rain-watered farms in temperature zones fed 10-100 per square mile, while herding supported a density in single digit figures. That, by the way, is why barbarians were always outnumbered by their civilized opponents. Living by hunting/gathering was the least efficient lifestyle of all; it could take up to twenty square miles to feed and clothe one person. In the harsh conditions of Arizona such a life would have been particularly tough.

You will note that of the four places in the Old World where civilization sprung up on its own, three of them--Egypt, Iraq and Pakistan--had major rivers running through a desert, at or near latitude 30 North. The latitude provided livable temperatures most of the time, the river provided year-round water, and the desert concentrated all the people where the water was, producing the first towns. The fourth civilization, China, wasn't too different, with semidesert conditions around its birthplace, the Yellow River valley.

The place in the United States where we have conditions matching the "cradles of civilization" is the Colorado River valley. Is it any coincidence that many of the "most civilized" Native American tribes--like the Anasazi, Hopi, Navaho and Pueblo--lived in that area?

Message: Flavius' question about cross-dressing
Author: wearing a kilt myself... - Bridei Manach, Patron
Date: Jul 28, 1998 14:41
Cross-dressing was a not too uncommon feature of shamanism in tribal societies. The practice is attested to both in the Americas (SW tribe, Hopi? comes to mind), and among the Siberian tribes.

If i remember my reading correctly, it had something to do with the shaman being 'married' to the spirits, and it also represented the shaman's task/focus/place in society in which he overturned or reversed the 'normal' way of things.

Sorry it's only now I'm posting this, but I'm recent.

Message: I think old Tom there........
Author: Optimus Princeps - Trajanus Ulpius, Patron
Date: Aug 3, 1998 07:12
......was probably commenting on the method of indian agriculture, not whether or not the indians practiced agriculture.

But that he would have thought that European ways were superior to Indian ways, I pretty much think there is no doubt about that.

Message: On Agriculture...
Author: - Conachar Morna
Date: Aug 22, 1998 10:53
You seem to be forgetting that agriculture developed independently in the Norhteast US. You claim that all Agriculture spread from the Colorado valley... not true... Beans and Squash were started in the Northeast, along with some types of grasses... and maize well that comes from south of the border........

Corn spread north and east, beans and squash- south and west....

Tobbacco anyone? I can't seem to remember where that originated....

Message: effeciency? hmmmmm...hunting and gathering vs. agriculture....
Author: kwakiutally speaking - Amenemhat Thutmose
Date: Aug 26, 1998 04:25
As far as effeciency of time involved, hunting and gathering is the most effecient way of satisfying a group's caloric daily intake, in terms of the amount of time utilized in obtaining the food. Of course, hunting and gathering only can sustain, as Berosus states, a small number of people in a given territory. Agrigulture is labor intensive(ancient agriculture), and the yield can be great. Native Americans utilized both methods, with varying degrees of success depending on the region involved. For example, the cultural groups of the northwest united states, those in the pacific northwest, relied on salmon almost exclusively...fishing is a form of hunting/gathering, and performed little, if any, agriculture, and they possessed some of the most sophisticated cultures(chiefdoms/egalitarian societies with the potlatch as a dominant feature of priveledge seeking), without completely attaining the 'rank' of a 'civilization'(the only thing they lacked is a sophisticated form of writing).

Message: Why?
Author: on geographics - Hibernicus Terentius
Date: Sep 3, 1998 15:20
Why were the most advanced native americans located in the desert Southwest and in the Southeast(i.e. the Cherokee)?

Message: That's not true...
Author: - Conachar Morna
Date: Sep 8, 1998 00:59
The Cherokee were as sophisticated as most of the Eastern seaboard tribes... They all had similar cultures and all practiced Hunting, gathering, and agriculture....

Message: Native Americans In the Carribean!
Author: - Saskia Niall
Date: Sep 12, 1998 11:36
I would be very much like to know a bit about the Native Americans who lived in the Carribean before the Europeans came.

I would also like to know which was the last Carribean tribe. I find the Native American history very interesting escpecially those of South America.

It has been suggested recently by Archealogists and Anthropologists that there was a trading link with cetain peoples and those of Egypt. If that is true our perception and knowledge of certain tribes must be reexamined and it is interesting to think that they could have been great sailors.

Message: Saskia Great spin-off!
Author: posting untill the big-brains get here - Hibernicus Terentius
Date: Sep 13, 1998 01:20
I only know two things of significance:

The Caribs were the menaces of the Caribbean they seemed to be at war with all the other native groups, and gave the peaceful natives a bad rap. They occassionally ate captured enemies(ughh!)

The Arawaks were another widespread tribe that balanced warefare with peace, the Spanish encountered them on Hispaniola. Tobacco comes from an Arawak word, and they first introduced the commodity to the Spanish(and hence the Old World).

The Tahino were the native people of Puerto Rico(and probably elsewhere) Their ancestors came from South America! amazing and interesting!

Well I wish I could share more info, but I don't know too much on this topic. Bye :)

Message: Native American links
Author: - Torrey Philemon, Patron
Date: Sep 13, 1998 13:54
Feel free to use my 500+ Native American links online, divided into several pages...Native American links and Native American art.

http://www.geocities.com/~webwinds/friends/bknative.htm

http://www.geocities.com/~webwinds/friends/bknative.htm

I am particularly interested in the Apache, Iroquois and Sioux, have studied these tribes and their history, myth, and spirituality extensively, and sponsored several Lakota children for ten years.

And I really want to see a Northern Native American world here....Word has it that an Anasazi world at A.S. may be developed next year...

Message: 500 Nations Cd-Rom Author: - Torrey Philemon, Patron Date: Sep 13, 1998 15:20 The 500 Nations cdrom, put out by Microsoft Home, which is now defunct, is the most amazing and spiritually and artistic magnificent computer product I've ever seen.

Based on the tv series narrated by Kevin Costner, it's about 30 hours of stories, history, images, videos etc. about Native American tribes of North America.

Anyway, I've been trying to get additional copies for over a year now...then discovered that it was discontinued early in 1997. So I've been hunting for the few remaining copies, and managed to find a few of them from someone who specializes in discontinued cdroms.

If anyone's interested let me know via my message board. I'd like to buy them out, but I don't have the money. However, I'll buy all I can on credit if there's sufficient interest.

This is not a marketing post. It's an attempt to share a magnificent experience...Can you believe there's a cd-rom out there so magnificent that it can reduce you to tears. This one is it...

Message: Check out Machu Picchu for native culture!
Author: - Torrey Philemon, Patron
Date: Jan 17, 1999 15:03
Since this topic was last used, Machu Picchu here has seen many developments...the entire area of Rainbow Bridge devoted to post-Columbus Native American culture, and numerous Council areas for sharing stories, prophecies etc. Also, the topic of the week on the Machu Picchu board is full of native american discussion, and the Sungate board hosts the Machu Picchu educational seminar announcements. If you're interested in native american culture, do spend some time at the A.S. Machu Picchu community, and do feel free to post there your knowledge, reflections and questions.

Message: Re: Ravens
Author: Revered Speaker of Aztlan - Scorpion ShieldJaguar
Date: Apr 29, 1999 01:04
Beorn: You are correct on your assumption that Coyote is the SW equivalent of both Loki and Raven.